Li said, "If Zhou is the state that the Confucians covet, why did Zhou fall?"
You said that only Confucians can govern the world well, bringing long-term peace and stability to it. Then why did the Zhou, which was the ideal state of the Confucianists, collapse?
Zhou was the ideal state of Confucians, and it was governed according to the principles they expected. According to your statement, it should have been invincible and eternal, yet it also fell. Why is that?
Either Zhou is not the ideal state of your Confucianism, or there is something wrong with your Confucianism, which cannot bring long-term peace and stability to the world.
Su Xu never thought he would be forced to this extent by the people he once considered barbarians. No matter how he answers this question, there will be loopholes.
"What kind of background does this person have? He didn't speak before, wasn't he just pretending to fool me?"
Suxu was thinking inwardly while responding, "The state remains strong as long as rites and music are maintained. It collapses when the rites collapse and the music falls into disrepair. Zhou existed because of its rites and music, but it fell due to their decline."
As expected, you would answer like this, Li Nian laughed and said, "That is to say, according to Master Su's opinion, the fall of Zhou was due to some people not observing the rites. Therefore, as long as everyone follows the Zhou rites, Zhou would be eternal and never perish. This shows that the Zhou rites are a very good thing!"
"Since Zhou rites are so good, why is it that people still don't follow them?" Li finally revealed his big move after reaching his wit's end.
Debating is absolutely not enough against this Confucian scholar. Unless he uses the future as a reference, doing so would not pass the inspection of Emperor Qin.
Without Emperor Qin's permission, Li Nian dared not casually reveal his origin from a later era, so he had to take a different approach, and the issue he chose was that of the Zhou rites.
He did not disappoint Li Nian. When Li Nian asked this question, Suxu was immediately caught in a dilemma.
This question can put Suxu in a difficult situation because Suxu will not admit that the Zhou rites have flaws.
With this condition set, Suxu would naturally be placed in a bind: if he acknowledges that the Zhou rites are perfect without flaws, then why would anyone not adhere to such a perfect system of rituals?
However, if he does not acknowledge that the Zhou rites are perfect without flaws, he will be contradicting his true nature and subverting the Confucian theory he has learned. The Zhou rites are the key to Confucian thought.
Li Nian directly hit the heart of Confucianism!
Of course, give Suxu some time, and he will undoubtedly come up with a reasonable explanation, just as historical Confucians have done.
Confucian thought was not born very perfect, but rather contained many flaws. Over the course of thousands of years, it has become more complete through the gradual efforts of Confucian scholars. Great scholars have annotated the classics, explaining a single sentence with hundreds of different interpretations. Eventually, there is always a fit.
However, those annotations may even surprise Confucius and Mencius themselves: "My God! Can my words be understood in this way? Or are you the younger generation who know how to play?"
Whether it aligns with the original intentions of Confucius and Mencius is not important. What matters is that the rulers recognize it, and as long as the Confucian theory can be made more complete, that is sufficient.
As for Confucius and Mencius, they knew nothing about the Confucian classics.
At this time, Confucianism had not yet developed into what it would become later, so Li Nian's question really put Suxu in a difficult position.
Li Nian did not take joy in putting Suxu in a difficult situation. He was merely taking advantage of his knowledge from the future. If they had the same foundation, Suxu could have easily outsmarted him.
After a while, Suxu had not yet found a way to answer this question. He looked up at Li Nian and frowned, saying, "Your Lord seems to have a strong opinion on Confucianism towards me."
The question was not answered, but Li Nian's attitude was sensed by him.
This person does not favor Confucianism and has been constantly picking at the flaws of Confucianism.
But Li Nian would not directly answer his question, he just smiled without speaking. Suxu had to change the topic again and ask, "What do you think is the best among the numerous schools of thought for ruling the world?"
Since he does not know why Li Nian does not favor Confucianism, he will try a different approach. As long as he knows which school of thought Li Nian prefers, it won't be hard to deduce the reason why he does not favor Confucianism.
"Is it the Legalist, the Mohist, or the Taoist?"
Suxu secretly guessed. In his opinion, it was most likely the Legalist school, as the Qin state currently favors the Legalist school and employs them. However, the Mohist school also has influence in Qin, known as Qin Mohism.
Best not to be the Mohist school, as the Mohist school is their Confucianism's bitter rival!
However, to Suxu's surprise, Li Nian's response was: "I believe none of the hundred schools can govern the world."
This answer shocked Suxu, and he looked at Li Nian in amazement, realizing that this person did not have any particular issues with Confucianism but rather had a negative view of all the schools of thought.
No, this person believes that none of the hundred schools can govern the world. Then what does he think can be used to govern the world?
With curiosity, Suxu asked, "What do you think is the way to govern the world?"
"I believe that practical actions are the most important. Speech is empty, and action is real. If something is not implemented, even if one speaks of it as brilliantly as flowers blooming and gold springs flowing, it will be meaningless."
Li Nian didn't talk about science, the study of objects, or the rule of law because these are ultimately used for practical purposes.
"Words are empty, actions are real..."
Suxu repeated a few times, then smiled and said, "Your words have sense, but I want to know why you don't think the Legalist school, Mohist school, or Taoist school can rule the country. Can you explain to me so that I can clear up my doubts?"
Li Nian only smiled and thought to himself, 'How can I tell you this? If you spread it around, I'll be in deep trouble with Emperor Qin!'
Seeing that Li Nian smiled but did not answer, Suxu realized and said, "It's my fault for being impertinent!"
Li Nian and Suxu's conversation was naturally reported to Ying Zheng.
Ying Zheng was on the throne, listening to the officials reporting, and suddenly received a signal from Meng Yi. Ying Zheng instantly understood in an instant, it must be something else with Li Nian. He nodded to Meng Yi.
In the court, Zhao Gao, Li Si, and others were baffled, completely unable to understand what kind of riddle these two were playing.
Especially Zhao Gao, he felt an inexplicable worry and unease in his heart. As one of the most trusted inner advisors of Ying Zheng, he was usually highly valued by the King. Now, the King was actually bypassing him!
He was different from Li Si. Li Si had reached his current position through genuine talent and hard work. Although he also had abilities, he mainly relied on the King's favor. If he no longer gained favor, his status would plummet.
This kind of situation cannot be allowed; it must be investigated to find out what has happened recently and why the King is bypassing himself.
Zhao Gao secretly thought to himself, Li Si also has doubts, but he doesn't worry as much as Zhao Gao. He just quietly watches from the sidelines without making a sound.
Serving Ying Zheng for these years, Li Si believed he understood the King's temperament very well. If the King wanted him to know something, he would naturally know. If the King didn't want him to know, it would be best not to pry.
Not long after, Meng Yi walked in with a sack of bamboo slips, his careful manner suggesting that he was carrying not bamboo slips but ten thousand ounces of gold.
Meng Yi brought the bamboo slips to the table in front of Ying Zheng. Ying Zheng opened the sack and took out the bamboo slips, flipping through them one by one. The contents were indeed the answers between Li Nian and Suxu, without a single word missing.
When Ying Zheng saw Suxu asking Li Nian "Do you know the hundred schools of thought?" his eyebrows raised, and with his wisdom, how could he not understand what Confucianism was trying to do?
As Ying Zheng saw Li Nian using the question about the Zhou rites to put Suxu in a difficult position, he smiled warmly. He also had similar thoughts: if the Zhou rites were truly so good, then why did the Zhou dynasty fall?
This is also one of the reasons why he does not believe in Confucian teachings!
Confucianism is suitable for teaching, but it is not suitable for governing the country. Confucius and Mencius have no experience in governing large countries. The highest position Confucius has ever held is that of the Grand Historian of Lu, a small country, and yet he dares to talk about governing the world?
